Jullien Gordon on How to Build Career Coaching Conversation Skiils

In Chapter 13 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "How Are Your Coaching Skills Improving as You Build Experience?"  Gordon learns ways to ask someone questions to understand where they are coming from.  He learns different ways to improve the questions he asks and the coaching conversation - and outcome - that results.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How are your coaching skills improving as you build experience?

Jullien Gordon: So my coaching skills, they come from my personal journey, but before anything, rather than coaching from my experience, I actually coach from my listening. So I actually focus on listening to the individual first. What I found is that oftentimes, especially when you think about self-help books and things of that nature, a lot of times when you read those books and then we try to apply somebody else’s framework or definition of success to our life, it doesn’t work out, because that’s theirs. And so when I coach, I don’t necessarily just take my experiences and translate them to the individual and say, “Here, do this,” instead, I start with deep listening and really thinking about what their situation is and then try to put myself in their shoes and then based on my experiences and my insights regarding that situation, it may inform my answer, but sometimes when I’m helping them, I’m really focused on asking the right questions. Rather than giving people answers, I’m focused on asking the right questions, because I think that when you ask the right questions, then the individual gets insights, and that insight leads to authentic answer for them. And so I think there are some coaches out there who take their experiences and then try to superimpose those experiences on the individual and say, “This worked for me, you should do exactly this,” and that’s not really the way I coach. My experiences help me understand an individual and where they’re coming from in a deeper way, especially as not only I have my experiences but I hear and have the experiences of others that I coach and that I connect with, all those stories are in my listening but I pull bits and pieces from them to help ask the right questions, not necessarily give answers for my coaching clients.

Erik Michielsen: That’s great. How are you learning to ask the right question?

Jullien Gordon: Pausing like this. Not trying to be right. And trusting that the individual, or my audience when I’m speaking to larger groups, have the answers within them, and that I’m just creating the space for them to actually explore what’s best for them. That’s really what it’s been for me. And like I said, sometimes my experiences and the stories that I hear from others help shape the question but I stay with questions rather than answers. A lot of people want answers, but I think when you give somebody a standard answer and they apply it, it may not work for them in the same way that it worked for you.

Jullien Gordon on Improving Career Workshop Experiences

In Chapter 14 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "How Are You Learning to Facilitate More Effective Workshop Experiences?"  In his public speaking work facilitating career education workshops, Gordon shares how he has transitioned from providing his audience tools and answers to asking questions and allowing his audience to come up with authentic answers.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How are you learning to facilitate more effective workshop experiences?

Jullien Gordon: Originally, when I started this work, it was all about giving people the answers, the 8 cylinders of success. Here, here’s my 8 cylinders of success. Try this on and use it for your life, implement it. And while 5 of the cylinders may resonate with you, for somebody else, it may be 3 cylinders, for somebody else it may be all 8. But I found by instead of giving answers and just by asking the right questions, I help the individuals in the audience actually come to their own authentic answers. And it’s their own authentic answers that are gonna stick with them throughout their life. I can give you my weight loss program but if it doesn’t align with who you are then your chances of actually completing it are going to be slim. But if you come up—if I ask you the right questions in terms of your eating patterns, how your body reacts and you come up with your own authentic answers for your diet, your exercise routines, et cetera. What kind of exercise is fun for you? I can’t just run around a track. I need a ball. I need to be playing basketball or I need to be playing soccer. I can’t exercise just by running around a track, that’s not fun, that’s not engaging for me. So, again, it’s been by asking the questions and trusting that the people know the answers. That’s what interviewing is all about, the assumption is that the answer is already within you. And if I can create a safe space and ask the right questions and bring it out, then you are creating your own plan and strategy for the next phase of your life.

Jullien Gordon on Using a Teaching Degree in a Business Career

In Chapter 15 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "How Have You Used a Masters Degree in Education in Your Business Career?"  Earning a teaching degree at Stanford helps Gordon better understand how individuals learn and how educational systems facilitate learning.  This shapes how he teaches career education in his business work.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How have you used your master’s degree in education in your business career?

Jullien Gordon: Well, at my core I’m a teacher, and one thing that I learned in terms of my master’s degree in education was how people learn. And so that’s been core to the way I develop my curriculum, the way I develop workshop experiences. It’s just been extremely valuable in that way. Ultimately I want to expand career education, I think it’s lacking in the same way that I think financial literacy is lacking in our K-12 education, in our college education, and our adult education. Why don’t people know how to do a budget? Why don’t people know how to manage the difference between assets and liabilities? Why don’t people know how to navigate their own career?

For me it’s the same thing and while I haven’t found a way to fully scale career education yet, so that people can manage their own careers and stop relying on their organization to manage their careers for them or their boss to manage their careers for them, I want to—ultimately I want to empower people to be able to navigate their careers on their own. And so that’s why that education at Stanford was so important to me because I understood how educational systems work, and how individuals learn, so I understood the ultimate infrastructure and I understood how people actually receive and retain information, and that shaped my teaching and my structuring of the work that I do.

Online Learning Limitations for Career Education - Jullien Gordon

In Chapter 16 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "What are the Limitations of Using Online Learning Tools for Career Education?"  After creating several online learning programs for career planning, Gordon finds it is fundamental to have a live event or live interaction to build a successful career coaching or inspirational speaking experience.  Gordon references both Tony Robbins and Zig Ziglar as examples of motivational speakers who complement core live event work with online resources.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What are the limitations of using online learning tools for career education?

Jullien Gordon: It’s been tough. I have created quite a few online programs to help people navigate their career in a more powerful way. And what I found is that one of my gifts is actually my presence and the listening in the safe space that I’m able to create. And when you think about Tony Robbins or Zig Ziglar, those guys—their businesses are built off of live events. While they may have audio programs and things of that nature, there’s something about being in a live space. I also believe in the wisdom of the crowds and you—in some cases, you can’t facilitate that online. But when I’m asking the right questions and I’m creating safe spaces for people to help each other, get clear on their answers, I just found that there is something unique that happens in a live event that can’t happen online. That’s really been difficult for me is to translate that safe environment online. What is safe about being online is that sometimes people feel like they can be anonymous, and that’s where they get safety online, but there’s just an energy that happens in a live space that I haven’t been able to translate online yet. I’ve seen a lot of people get inspired online, but I haven’t seen a life transform online. I have seen a life transform in my events. Like right there, in the moment. I haven’t seen that online before.

Jullien Gordon: Career Planning Advice for Millennial Professionals

In Chapter 17 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon "What Steps Have You Found Most Effective to Help Young Professionals Create Career Plans?"  When working with younger professionals - Gen Y and Millennials - on career planning, Gordon starts with a process to help clients get clear on life and career goals.  He lays out his 4-step process to create a dream life, attract a dream career, build a dream team and land your dream job and walks through why and how to do this.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What steps have you found most effective to help young professionals create career plans?

Jullien Gordon: Good question. So whenever I’m talking to a young professional to help them think about their career plan, I like to break it down into four different steps. And the four steps are, one, creating your dream life. Next is attracting your dream career. Then building your dream team. Then landing your dream job. And of course the acronym for “dream” means to have your desired relationships employment and money. So it’s really about your life design, and the reason I start with creating your dream life first is because your life is bigger than your career, a lot of times people allow their career to define who they are, when in fact who we are should define what we do.

And so I start with your life first. What is your vision for your life? And then let’s find a career path that actually allows you to have the life that you want. And so we start with creating your dream life and that’s a visioning process, thinking about your perfect average day, or your perfect average week, and what you want your desired relationships to look like, and your relationships not just being with your significant other or your kids but your spiritual source, your parents, your friends, your colleagues, what do you want those relationships to look like? What do you want your employment to look like? How do you want to create value? What problems do you want to solve? How do you want to use your passion on a daily basis? And then money, what is enough? And do you have enough? And really getting clear on what that is.

And then from there, attracting your dream career is all about your professional and personal branding, that’s your résumé, your cover letter, your web presence, and your business cards, the way you network, et cetera. Building your dream team means of course your networks up, down, across and out. So not just—a lot of people have strong networks across in terms of their Facebook friends, but if you look in their cellphone, 95% of the people are in their age group, I found that the most powerful form of networking is networking up with other professionals, with peers, with mentors, with leaders in the community, et cetera. Those are the people who are on the other side of the door that you’re trying to get into. Your peers can get you to the door, but you want to know who’s on the other side of the door who – or who has the key.

And then of course, finally, landing your dream job is all about the interview process, and nailing your first 90 days at whatever new organization that you’re at. So that’s how I like to help people think about their career journey.

Jullien Gordon on Increasing Business Coaching Sales and Impact

In Chapter 18 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon "How Are Your Career Aspirations Changing as You Gain Experience?"  Gordon shares how he has learned that while his consumers are individuals but his customers are organizations.  As a result, Gordon shifts his relationship building and sales strategy away from social media - LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, etc. - and toward organizational sales and outreach.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How are your career aspirations changing as you gain experience?

Jullien Gordon: One of the biggest insights that I’ve had this year is that while my consumer is individuals, my customer is actually large organizations, whether that’s companies, non-profit organizations, conferences, or colleges. And up until this point I’ve been trying to get the hearts and the minds of individuals through videos, through Facebook, through my writing, through LinkedIn, et cetera. And when in fact—when I think about the greatest impact that my work has had, it’s been through organizations, whether that’s a large organization like PWC bringing me in, or some school, or some non-profit to speak at a large conference, that’s where I’ve had access to the most individuals, and so my shift in energy in 2013 is going to be focused on how to build relationships with those key decision makers and less about social media, less about trying to get individuals, because I will get individuals once I get through them.

I’d rather have 10 relationships with people in those key decision positions than relationships with a thousand individuals. Because those 10 relationships are gonna give me access to a thousand individuals or more. And so that’s a big shift for me because—yeah, it’s just a big shift for me as I think about what it’s actually gonna take to grow the business, it’s not as sexy as… It’s not as sexy, I mean the sexy route is almost like being in a music band and you see your Facebook fan page likes go up and all of a sudden you have 50,000 likes. But how many of those 50,000 people are actually buying your CD? Right?

And so when you think about the business model behind my work, while I have books, and there’s a margin, a slim margin on a book where I’ve actually been able to spread the work and actually get compensated fairly for the work that I do, it’s been through organizations and so that’s gonna take me on a completely different path in 2013 and probably onward, is that I’m gonna access individuals through larger organizations. So my presence in social media, the videos that I do, while they’re nice and it’s nice to see people comment and things like that, that’s not what’s driving the business model which sustains me to continue to do the work that I’ve been called to do in the world, then that has to change. And that’s been a hard realization to accept.

Jullien Gordon on Innovating Human Capital Strategy

In Chapter 19 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon "What Has Your Corporate Work Taught You About Innovation Needs in Human Resources?"  In his human resources strategy work, uses an interviewing approach - called innerviewing - to better understand employee growth, development, and needs beyond the new hire onboarding stage.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What has your corporate work taught you about innovation needs in human resources?

Jullien Gordon: Innovation has always been focused on the machine and the product, and how we deliver that service. And where I see that connecting with human resources, that innovation is really about how we manage, retain and grow our people now. Because everybody can replicate your technology now, they can get your product, dissect it, see what you did, and replicate that in a month now, right? So really the innovation, which can’t be replicated as easily, is your human capital. And so that’s where I’ve seen it connecting, and that the organizations that are committed to innovating around the way that they work with their human capital are the ones that are winning. You look at Zappos for example. You look at Southwest for example. All of these places are known for their great organizational culture and that’s why they have dominated their industries over the past few years.

Erik Michielsen: How do you start that conversation with the senior HR leader about making those changes to stay ahead of the curve?

Jullien Gordon: So the first question that I ask HR professionals is: Do you know who’s on your team? When you interviewed them, you got information about them in terms of their résumés, their past accomplishments, where they were educated, but now it’s six months in or a year in or 18 months in, and do you still know who that person is? We, as human beings, are evolving so quickly in this day and age that this person may have gotten married, like myself. They may have kids. And their original intention for coming to your organization may have changed. When they originally came to your organization, it may have been to pay off their student loans, it may have been for leadership opportunities and travel opportunities, then all of a sudden, life has occurred for them, and now their top priorities are no longer those three things, they’re actually mentorship, flexibility, and… certain types of projects, right? But if we never stop and ask those questions, then we are developing our human capital strategy based on who we hired 18 months ago, not who we have on our team today.

And so I help organizations close the gap between what their employees really want and expect from their employer, and their current human capital strategy. And I do that through my process called “innerviewing.” We all know what an interview is. That’s how you get the job. But innerviewing is a constant process of going back to your team and asking the right questions. What do they expect from work? Why are they even at this company? Because we don’t even ask that in the interview, we assume that we know the answer because they accepted the job offer. And then we’re also asking them, how do they define success? And is this company helping them achieve their definition of success? That’s the greatest employee retention strategy of all time, is to help them achieve their definition of success.

Now, a company may say, I do that by giving them a bonus, or higher pay, and then they can take that money and do what they want to create the life that they want outside of the work space, but I find that, for this generation, they don’t just want money, they also want to make meaning and because we spend so much time in our work environment, that has to be a space that’s fulfilling and engaging, and so when you ask somebody what’s their definition of success, and you ask them how their work actually fits in to that, you find that if you’re helping them achieve their definition of success, not just at work but in their life in general, then it’s gonna be harder for them to leave because it’s happening for them here through you and your organization.

And so, again, the question is, who’s on your team, or do you even know who’s on your team? Yeah, you hired them this long ago, but do you know who’s on your team right now? Do you know what their definition of success is? Do you know what their expectations are of work? And do you even know why they work beyond just money? And if you actually get answers to those three questions, I think you’ll find information that you can use to close the gap between what your employees really want and your human capital strategy.

And the reason I’m so important in doing this work is because oftentimes HR may send out a survey, and a survey already has bias in it based on who wrote the survey. And then some HR organizations are—or departments say that they’ve done focus groups. Well, I’ve found that anonymity is actually the best way to get the most authentic answers from employees, and so that’s where I go in to organizations. I actually go in, ask the high performers these core questions, take those insights and then help the organization close the gap between what their high performers that they want to retain really want and their human capital strategy.

Jullien Gordon on Improving Employee Engagement Practices

In Chapter 20 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "How are You Helping Corporations Improve Employee Engagement Practices?"  Gordon notes how in his personal life, he learned you cannot get engaged (to be married) until you ask the question.  He applies this philosophy helping corporate clients understand their employees and their goals after the hiring decision.  This improves the onboarding process and raises employee engagement at work.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: How are you helping corporations improve employee engagement practices?

Jullien Gordon: Well, I just got engaged October of 2011, and you can’t get engaged until you ask the question. And so that’s why I always start with a question, right? Oftentimes, we get into organizations and we commit before we even know if we’re engaged, and employers have to know that for the first six months to a year, an employee is not necessarily committed, they’re really just feeling it out because they chose this because you recruited on campus or it was the most available thing to them, not necessarily it was the best thing for them yet.

So they’re still in an exploration phase. And so in order to get someone engaged, you have to ask them the right questions, and the right questions include: What are you passionate about? And how are you exercising that, or how can you bring that to what you do on a daily basis? What problems do you see for our customers, or our clients, or our colleagues, or the company in general that you may want to solve that is actually valuable? Who is it that you really serve within the context of the organization? And, again, how do you define success, personally and professionally?

Those are some of the right questions that employers need to ask their employees in order to understand who they are because the greatest depression that we have in this economic environment is the gap between who we are and what we do. That’s the greatest depression. And to the extent that we can get people to bring more of who they are to what they do, the more likely you’re gonna have higher engagement and presence in the workplace. And so that’s how I help employers actually navigate that space is by asking the right questions so that they can increase career presence ‘cause a lot of employers are actually paying full-time salaries for part-time presence, right? They have somebody who’s already quit but stayed, right? And so this is not necessarily because the person hates what they do, it may be because they hate how it’s being done, why they’re doing it, or who they’re doing it for.

Erik Michielsen: That’s a great point. And you also in our past interviews mentioned underemployment being such a big challenge in today’s job market. And one of the things we often forget is that to solve underemployment doesn’t mean you have to change jobs, sometimes you need to tweak the job you’re already in.

Jullien Gordon: Exactly. So a lot of times, especially for employees, they think that the first thing to do, when there’s a gap between who they are and what they do is to change what they do. But then they change what they do and no more of who they are is actually in that next thing and they still feel the same gap, so they just jumped from the frying pan to the fire, right? And so if we actually figure out how to bring more of who we are to what we do, then that gap is closed and you feel more present in the work that you do. There’s nothing wrong with being an investment banker but perhaps because of the reason you’re doing it, how you’re doing it, who you’re doing it for, if you take that same person and you put them in Kiva, and all of a sudden they’re doing it for small entrepreneurs in developing countries and they’re doing it for a social cause and they’re not doing it for money, all of a sudden that person feels fully alive yet they’re still doing the same thing, there’s no difference between someone who’s financing entrepreneurs at Kiva and a venture capitalist or investment banker, it’s just a different scale, a different type of customer and a different process in terms of how the work gets done.

And so oftentimes it’s not about changing what you do or changing the job, that may be the second step, first we need to ask ourselves, how can I bring more of who I am to what I do? Because there’s thousands of people who do exactly what you do. There’s thousands of lawyers. There’s thousands of bankers. There’s thousands of consultants. So you’re great at what you do, so are they. What makes you different is who you are and how you bring that into what you do. And so you have your position and you have your presence, and what a lot of people are lacking is they’re good at their position but they’re not bringing their presence or their extra who-am-I to what they do.

Jullien Gordon on Ways to Decrease Turnover and Retain Employees

In Chapter 21 of 21 in his 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, business coach Jullien Gordon answers "What Approaches Are You Taking to Help Organizations Better Retain Senior Management Talent?".  In his human capital strategy work, Gordon uses an interviewing process identify and close the gap between employee life goals and employer work expectations.  Jullien Gordon is a high performance coach and consultant to organizations, individuals and teams who want to increase employee performance, motivation, engagement and retention.  He earned a BA from UCLA, an MBA from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and a Masters of Education from Stanford University.

Transcript:

Erik Michielsen: What approaches are you taking to help corporations better retain senior management talent?

Jullien Gordon: So I’m actually going to these organizations and leading trainings where I ask key employees these core questions and this can be in a group space, or it can be in a one-on-one space. And then I take that data anonymously, and I look for patterns in terms of what the employees are really seeking for their lives in general and their expectations of their employer, and the reasons why they work, and I take that back to the employer to help them close the gap between what their employees want and expect and their current human capital strategy. And using those insights, we’re able to close that gap and increase retention and lower the turnover rates.

So that’s really what it is, it’s a simple practice but, again, it takes someone who can listen from a non-judgmental space, someone who can listen without any intent for the employee. So I go in to an employer and I speak with an employee, and I’m asking not because I’m even trying to retain you, I’m just asking out of pure curiosity about what your vision is for your life. And to the extent that I can help your employer help you achieve your vision for your life, the more likely it is that you will stay at this particular organization and be engaged.

Erik Michielsen: What have you found surprising about those interviews?

Jullien Gordon: First and foremost, there’s no standard answer, right? So when—especially when I ask the question around the definition of success, an employer might say more money is what’s gonna keep somebody, and they’ve tried that and they might get a little pop in performance for a month or two, and then the performance goes right back down to what it was and so when you really ask people what their definition of success is in the three ways that they measure it, you see all of these unique ways and I’ve done this in audiences of 4-500. And there are very few people who have identical answers. So that’s first and foremost, everybody has unique answers.

And then some of the answers that they have won’t cost the employer a dime to actually implement and support. For instance, if part of my definition of success is building strong relationships and the quality of my relationships, there are through affinity groups and things of that nature, an employer can actually offer that intentionally to their employees, not as a passive thing, but intentionally saying we have these spaces for people who are couples, people who are married with kids, people who are in this life stage and dealing with this, people who have cancer at our organization, whatever. People can find quality relationships in the context of their employer, so and companies aren’t just gonna be about technical things in getting things done and shipping. They are actually gonna be I think in the future more social environments, also like colleges where I am getting a lot of my life needs met through this space. Of course, from 8 to 5, I am working hard to move this organization and the clients from point A to point B, but there are wraparound services that don’t cost employers that much to—that will actually help the employees achieve their definition of success in not only their career but also in their life.

Lulu Chen on How Personal Priorities Change With Age

In Chapter 1 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Are Your Personal Priorities Changing With Age?"  Chen notes how she has learned not always to be a people pleaser and to let go of guilt of not always helping others and put herself first sometimes.  By taking care of herself she is able to be more helpful to friends and family. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are your personal priorities changing with age?

Lulu Chen: I definitely try to strive for a better work/life balance. And as I get older I prioritize my personal—my own needs more than everyone else’s.

Erik Michielsen: For example?

Lulu Chen: I was always a people pleaser and I always wanted to make everybody else happy, and I worked really hard, but sometimes, you know, you just keep going and you don’t actually step back and think about yourself. You’re just too busy accomplishing all the tasks or all the roles that you’re supposed to play, or just, you know, doing the right thing, or you just get busy, and you forget to think about yourself sometimes.

Erik Michielsen: What approach have you taken to create that time for yourself?

Lulu Chen: Well, I’ve learned how to say “no,” to every event, or any events that I don’t want to attend or can’t attend, or, you know, I’ve let go of a lot of guilt, you know. And I realize I’m putting my own mask on first, you know, like on the airplane, how they tell you, “You can’t really help anyone else if you can’t help yourself first.”

Erik Michielsen: Does that also involve getting more comfortable being in a quiet place?

Lulu Chen: Oh, literally and figuratively? Both? Yeah. I think you have to be more comfortable with yourself. I think maybe you kind of settle down as you get older too, and you’re not going out every night, or, you know, definitely in my 20s, I think I worked every day and probably went out a lot, you know, whether it be to see friends, or industry events, or just parties in general, you know. And I definitely think now I take more time for myself, and I try to carve out more time with close friends, family, and my boyfriend.

Lulu Chen on How Family Relationships Change With Age

In Chapter 2 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Are Your Family Relationships Changing as You Get Older?  Chen learns to appreciate her parents as she gets older.  Now in her 30s, Chen is reminded of her mother's advice to take a moment before making big decisions. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How are your family relationships changing as you get older?

Lulu Chen: I accept them more and I realize all of the little things that they’ve done as parents growing up, they might not have been the perfect parents or the best parents, but they definitely tried. And it took me to become an adult to realize that they did certain things right. Maybe not everything but they did a lot—They tried. You know? And the only thing you can do is be—try your best, you know?

Erik Michielsen: Do you go back and have those conversations with them about “Okay, so thinking back when I was a teenager, when you did this, and I was always fighting you about it, you actually were doing the right thing.”

Lulu Chen: Well, no, it’s more that my tolerance for them has grown and my appreciation for them has grown. And my struggle with my parents were actually more when I was older, you know, not—well, not in the teenager so much because they worked so much, they weren’t even really around. We didn’t really fight. But growing up, just remembering the little nuggets of advice that they used to try and shove down your throat, you know, you didn’t understand it then, you kind of had to make your own mistakes and then now I realize, “Oh, that’s what she meant. Okay.”

Erik Michielsen: What was their advice?

Lulu Chen: I think my mom always tried to tell me to take a moment, you know, I was very headstrong and I would just leap into things, or I would say things, I was very outspoken when I was younger. I guess I still am now but I definitely try and take a moment and think about it before I leap, you know, just to—Yeah, just to be more observant. So, that was a very good one, I think, in general.

Lulu Chen on How Reflecting Helps You Plan for the Future

In Chapter 3 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "What Role Has Reflection Played in Shaping Your Personal Growth?"  Reflecting helps Chen appreciate what she has today.  It helps make better career plans, especially as she has grown into her 30s. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What role has reflection played in shaping your personal growth?

Lulu Chen: I think it’s given me perspective just reflecting back on previous jobs and like life experiences and relationships. It’s—I don’t know. It makes me appreciate what I really have today, and it gives me perspective on what’s really important and what my priorities are. 
I think when I was younger I just kept working so hard but I didn’t necessarily think about the direction, you just think, “Oh, you just work really hard. You just keep doing this, and good things happen,” which generally I—you know, I try to be positive and hope that that’s still true, but sometimes I think you also have to strategize directionally, you know, sort of—kind of plan it out a little bit, and I’ve gotten better at that too as I’ve gotten older.

I think sometimes speaking to some of my friends, my peers, and having them kind of compliment me or point things out, that’s when I reflect back, and I really appreciate it, you know. It’s very hard for me to take compliments sometimes and I also—Yeah, I just forget, you know? I forget to stop and just think about things and, you know—just, you know, keep going.

Lulu Chen on How Confidence Improves Your Work Performance

In Chapter 4 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "What Role Does Confidence Play in the Work That You Do?"  As a fashion professional, Chen finds confidence helps improve your own performance and, as a result, those working around you. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What role does confidence play in the work that you do?

Lulu Chen: So I think confidence comes into play in a lot of different ways actually. I think it comes into play for yourself, in that you trust your own abilities and, you know, if you have to lead a team or direct for—in what I’m doing now, you direct a team of people, you also—I think when you exude confidence, they trust you, and they, you know, they trust in the process and the project, and—I mean, no one really wants to take direction from someone who seems unsure of themselves, right?

When you’re confident, I think you stress less. You’re just more sure, you’re more steady. I think that’s great for yourself and anyone you work with. But also when you aren’t confident, I think it snowballs, you know. Everybody kind of through osmosis, everyone becomes a little, you know, unsure of themselves. And that’s just a disaster. Right? Because—And also, you know, when you confidently present something to someone in a meeting even or let’s say a prospectus or something, it definitely sells better than if you carry yourself in an unsure way. You know, the way you speak, and how you feel about it too.

What Factors Determine Your Work Ethic - Lulu Chen

In Chapter 5 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "Where Did You Learn Your Work Ethic?"  Chen considers nature versus nurture when thinking about the origins of her work ethic.  She finds influences do come from outside forces such as parents or work experience but also feels much of work ethic is inherent and part of who you are. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: Where did you learn your work ethic?

Lulu Chen: I don’t think you learn it. I think it’s just who you are. I think it could be developed, you know, the whole nurture versus nature argument. I think my parents always worked really hard. And so they were good examples of working really hard and I learned probably some of the work ethic from them but also I just—it’s never really a question—you just always do the best that you can. But I don’t know if that was learned or just who I am.

Erik Michielsen: And do you have people ask you about that? 

Lulu Chen: I don’t think people really talk about it. I mean I think you get hired again as a freelancer, if they know that you care and that you work hard. And that you’re invested in their project as much as they are, or, you know, I think that it becomes expected when somebody knows who you are, and you—if you’re having a slacking off day, you know, they’ll notice it, but it’s ultimately not because you’re trying to be lazy or something, you know. 

Lulu Chen on How to Help a Friend Find a New Job

In Chapter 6 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Has Your Network Helped You Find You Jobs?"  Chen notes it is especially about the little things where your friends can help you find new jobs.  This includes having your friends vouch for you as well as having them give you help updating your resume or writing a cover letter. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How has your network helped you find new jobs?

Lulu Chen: It’s all encompassing, you know, your friends can send you job postings or ideas, or tell you about things that they’ve heard of and opportunities which is I think huge, you know, and I think that a professional network or just a personal network does that, especially in such a big market in New York. But, I mean it’s the little things, really, you know, it’s like helping you proofread your cover letter, and making sure that your résumé looks good, and we all do it for each other. And from the technical small things to the fact that they will go and vouch for you, and really say to a friend or a colleague, or their boss, like, “Oh, you know, I’ve worked with this person before. I really think that they’re the best candidate for the job, and it might not be somebody who is obvious, but, you know, if you give this person that chance, she won’t let you down.”

How to Ask for the Job You Want

In Chapter 7 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Did You Get Hired as an Art Director Without Being a Traditional or Obvious Candidate?"  During an interview, Chen is asked "What do you really want to do?" and after answering not with stylist but rather with art director and creative director, she is given an opportunity to interview with a creative director.  Chen gets the art director job.  This experience teaches Chen to ask for the job she wants. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How did you get hired as an art director without being a traditional or obvious candidate?

Lulu Chen: Well, I did some art directing when I worked at Self Magazine, and, you know, you had to work on the styling and art directing, so that was really great experience for me, but recently, transitioning into more of an art directing role than a stylist role. This is a really funny story. I actually went in to an interview thinking of applying for a fulltime styling position, but it turned out that the company was so big, and that specific job was actually with an acquaintance friend of mine that we had worked together years ago, at Condé Nast for. But, you know, sitting in his office, he basically—we were both like, “This isn’t for you.” Like, “It’s a writing job. You can do it. You can do these pages. If you really want it, you know, I’ll think about it. But what do you really want to do?”

And in the last couple of years, I’ve been thinking about like, “Oh, you know, someday I’d really love to be a creative director. I’d love to do something a bit more bigger picture.” You know, just kind of growth and transitioning, and—I don’t know—setting up new challenges for myself, so, he kept pressing me, like, “What do you really wanna do?” Like, “What do you wanna do? What do you wanna do?” And I was like, “Oh, my God. I just want, you know, I wanna be an art director and a creative director one day.” And it just came out. And—but I had never said it out loud. I—you know, I kind of questioned some friends who were art directors and, you know, tried to kind of get their advice on, “Oh, what do you think?” or “How do I do it?” But I never really just put it out there, you know?

And sitting here in an interview, and I’m like, “I can’t believe I just said that.” But it is, it’s true. It’s really what I was hoping for. And, you know, his response was, “Fine. Okay.” And you’re like, “That’s it?” “Really, it’s that simple?” I mean, you know, I never thought—“Oh, you just keep asking. You just keep asking.” Or, you ask—You ask, you know, and sometimes, you know, someone will be like, “Fine. Try. Go for it”, you know, maybe— So I was really lucky, he—and I really appreciate that he gave me the opportunity, and he put me in touch with his creative director. And love this man, so, so—I don’ know—just inspirational. I think I had a 12-minute interview with the creative director. And he spoke, like 3 languages in that time. Picked up a phone call in French, said hi to me in Chinese, told me about all of operations, looked at my portfolio, showed me, like, some video that he had done, like, in 12 minutes. I mean, it was like the fastest talker I’ve ever met in my entire life, that type of thing. And you’re just like, “Whoa.” You know, and he said, “Okay.” He’s like, “We’re gonna give you this chance.”  

You know, maybe he didn’t say that literally, but he gave me the chance and I remember this so clearly, he said, “Do good and good things will happen, and, yeah.” And he’s like, “Just don’t F it up.” And he kind of put the fear of God in me, but at that moment, I was like, “Well, there’s no going back now, so, you know, that’s not an option. So you’re just gonna go for it”, you know. You know, so I did.

Art Director Lulu Chen on Learning to Work in Retail E-Commerce

In Chapter 8 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "What Does It Mean to Be an Art Director Working in Retail E-Commerce?"  In her online retail projects, Chen works to keep the photography simple yet useful to share the look, feel an shape of the clothes virtually with the consumer.  She shares examples how the lighting, photography and presentation can change based on the mood or presentation goals. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: What does it mean to be an art director working in retail e-commerce?

Lulu Chen: So, for the projects that I’ve worked on, we try and keep things simple so that it’s easy to view and we really try and do the clothes justice. You know, we try and present the shape, the silhouette. We try and show the texture, you know, we try and show the style, but—you know, there’s a lot of things that we’re trying to get across. But, really, it’s a selling shot. So we’re trying to show how many buttons it might have, you know, if it’s a boxier fit or a slim fit, or, you know, where it would—you know, the proportions of certain things, pockets—I mean all these details, really, it’s trying to get all of that across, so that it’s a fair representation for the consumer, because you’re not there, you’re not able to tangibly touch things, but, you know, so we try and show them.

So brand to brand, it’s different. And also there are some more editorial elements to certain retail e-commerce sites. Some have simpler backgrounds and they’re against gray or white. And it really just—the focus is on the clothing or the accessories. But sometimes, you know, with the more editorialized shots, it’s really about the mood.

Lulu Chen on How Online Retail and Editorial Fashion Jobs Compare

In Chapter 9 of 16 in her 2012 Capture Your Flag interview, art director Lulu Chen answers "How Does Working in Retail E-Commerce Compare and Contrast With the Work That You Have Done in Editorial?"  Chen notes how the teams - photographers, models, stylists, etc. can be the same as can the process.  However, the goals can be very different, as editorial goals can trend more toward aspirational brand communication whereas online retail or retail e-commerce is more functional, rooted in selling clothes that fit. 

Lulu Chen is a photo art director working in retail e-commerce in New York City.  Previously, Chen worked as a freelance stylist for leading fashion catalogs and magazines.  She earned a BFA in design and art history from the University of Michigan.

Transcript: 

Erik Michielsen: How does working in retail e-commerce compare and contrast with the work that you’ve done in editorial?

Lulu Chen: Well, the teams are the same—can be actually almost the same, you know, the talents, people do both, you know, your photographer, your hair and makeup, your models, and everybody who’s freelance. Actually, you know, even some contributors of magazines, they do both, so the process is similar in a way, depending on what you’re working on. But the actual—the goal might vary. So in editorial work, you’re more focused on this narrative and this aspirational kind of fantasy and this mood and this lifestyle you might be selling or, you know, trying to achieve.

Whereas I think in retail and in commerce, it has to be more brand specific or, you know, it has to be more pointed, you know, it’s—you’re selling. You’re selling a specific thing. You’re selling either a brand or an item or items, and specifically for me, I work on apparel, so the clothes have to look good, you know. I mean in editorial, we can move around or lay someone down, and sometimes it’s a hot mess, you know, and it doesn’t matter that things are flying around and, you know, but I think that in commerce, it has to be a little bit more functional, you know?

I think you can have fun in both editorial and in retail. 

I think it’s starting to be bridged too, you know, it’s like that whole art and commerce, and I think a lot of retail brands are doing a really good job, they’re still trying to make—they’re trying actually to be aspirational and trying to get their customer to push the boundaries or, you know, to kind of imagine this lifestyle—you know, wearing their clothes or their items or their accessories, but at the end of the day, you know, it’s still—it still has to be more functioning.